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Passion
Jun 24, 2013 17:33:36 GMT -5
Post by Christian on Jun 24, 2013 17:33:36 GMT -5
One other question I have is whether anyone has seen the original film that Passion is based on (Crime d'amour)? I'd like to see this to see how the two films compare and work out what has been carried over from the original and what is entirely De Palma's vision. (I read for example that the twin sister story element is not in the original - please correct me if I'm wrong!) I have seen the original. I can't remember there being anything about a twin sister in the original, but I could very well be wrong. What's interesting though, is just how DePalma used that idea and ingeniously turned it into a motif of guilt, further elevating the great ending. I was never a fan of the original, which I though was quite overrated; flat and unconvincing. In fact, I though it was so mediocre that I felt it would take nothing less than a monumental effort on De Palma's part to make it worthwhile. I said several times Brian would have to completely disassemble and reinvent the film in order to make it interesting. Well, Brian did just that. So what De Palma did, was to take took what was very much a plot-based movie (hinging on a rather ludicrous plot twist at that), and turned it into something much more visual. This has to be one if the absolute best re-makes I've seen. It's really nothing like the original: only the skeleton remains. And that's the way any remake should be done. |
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Passion
Jun 24, 2013 17:59:59 GMT -5
Post by Christian on Jun 24, 2013 17:59:59 GMT -5
This is also particularly true of De Palma`s the Black Dahlia and the performances of Hilary Swank, and in particular Fiona Shaw as Ramona Linscott. Many critics hated her performance for being over the top, but to me it is darkly humerous and perfectly apt. Her final scene even takes place in front of what looks like a stage curtain and De Palma is playing games with convention. Going back to Passion one other thing that that later struck me is the minimalist clean style and approach that De Palma uses uses in this film. I don't recall seeing that so much as a feature in his other works. Good point with Fiona Shaw, that was obviously a diliberately over-the-top performance. That was one of my favorite scenes from a movie that I otherwise did not care much for.  When it comes to your oint about the minimalist style, I think all his latter films from 2002 onwards have been more restrained (much to my disappointment  ) - I love Brian for his fearless, operatic, deeply idiosyncratic work  - the camera angles and lighting are less dramatic and the camera moves fewer and less intense nowadays, it seems. The first hour of Passion is visually very flat, I think. So to see the fireworks in the last part of the movie made me very happy. In fact I was deeply touched that this 71-year old man was able create such a brilliant piece of filmmaking this late in his career. That is definitely not something to be taken for granted. |
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Passion
Jun 25, 2013 15:34:58 GMT -5
Post by frankhabets on Jun 25, 2013 15:34:58 GMT -5
My second viewing of Passion changed my 'verdict' from great to masterpiece. Interesting. I'm curious as to how you reached that assessment? On my first viewing, I thought the film went overboard in referencing his earlier works, and hence a bit gimmicky. On the second viewing, I realized that the film worked very well on its own terms, and that those echoes and tricks were in fact clever variations. A couple of examples off the top of my head: The twin here was indeed just a dream. The nightmares, instead of reflecting a broken soul tortured by the awful events that hurt the protagonist, were in fact shaped by the evil deeds committed by the protagonist. In short, DePalma is not repeating himself, he's just further exploring his deliciously fun dreamscape cineverse. |
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Passion
Jun 25, 2013 15:45:28 GMT -5
Post by frankhabets on Jun 25, 2013 15:45:28 GMT -5
I thought it was evident throughout the film, from the architecture and design of JJ Koch's office environment, to Isabelle's & Christine's appartments, through to the 'L'après-midi d'un faune Ballet performance'. Many scenes too feature just one or two of the main protagonists - the screen is no-where near as 'busy' as say Snake-Eyes or The Black Dahlia as examples. In Passion there is no 'clutter'. This might also be to emphasise the elements of German expressionism that appear during the film, the bright colours (particularly use of White, Black and Red in clothing and the surrounding environment), the shading, and the canted camera angles mid-way through the film. I thought it was a very interesting and successful approach. Ah, we are indeed on the same page. The German expressionism, coupled with the corporate world's Bauhaus chic, shaped this minimalist look. A big contrast to, say, the wild kitsch of Scarface. |
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drnix
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Passion
Jun 28, 2013 13:49:14 GMT -5
Post by drnix on Jun 28, 2013 13:49:14 GMT -5
One other question I have is whether anyone has seen the original film that Passion is based on (Crime d'amour)? I'd like to see this to see how the two films compare and work out what has been carried over from the original and what is entirely De Palma's vision. (I read for example that the twin sister story element is not in the original - please correct me if I'm wrong!) I have seen the original. I can't remember there being anything about a twin sister in the original, but I could very well be wrong. What's interesting though, is just how DePalma used that idea and ingeniously turned it into a motif of guilt, further elevating the great ending. I was never a fan of the original, which I though was quite overrated; flat and unconvincing. In fact, I though it was so mediocre that I felt it would take nothing less than a monumental effort on De Palma's part to make it worthwhile. I said several times Brian would have to completely disassemble and reinvent the film in order to make it interesting. Well, Brian did just that. So what De Palma did, was to take took what was very much a plot-based movie (hinging on a rather ludicrous plot twist at that), and turned it into something much more visual. This has to be one if the absolute best re-makes I've seen. It's really nothing like the original: only the skeleton remains. And that's the way any remake should be done. Sounds like the original isn't anything special. I think I'd still like to see it for comparison, and to see where De Palma has made changes and embellished the visual elements in particular. |
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drnix
New Member
Posts: 18
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Passion
Jun 28, 2013 14:14:55 GMT -5
Post by drnix on Jun 28, 2013 14:14:55 GMT -5
This is also particularly true of De Palma`s the Black Dahlia and the performances of Hilary Swank, and in particular Fiona Shaw as Ramona Linscott. Many critics hated her performance for being over the top, but to me it is darkly humerous and perfectly apt. Her final scene even takes place in front of what looks like a stage curtain and De Palma is playing games with convention. Going back to Passion one other thing that that later struck me is the minimalist clean style and approach that De Palma uses uses in this film. I don't recall seeing that so much as a feature in his other works. Good point with Fiona Shaw, that was obviously a diliberately over-the-top performance. That was one of my favorite scenes from a movie that I otherwise did not care much for. When it comes to your oint about the minimalist style, I think all his latter films from 2002 onwards have been more restrained (much to my disappointment ) - I love Brian for his fearless, operatic, deeply idiosyncratic work - the camera angles and lighting are less dramatic and the camera moves fewer and less intense nowadays, it seems. The first hour of Passion is visually very flat, I think. So to see the fireworks in the last part of the movie made me very happy. In fact I was deeply touched that this 71-year old man was able create such a brilliant piece of filmmaking this late in his career. That is definitely not something to be taken for granted. I'm surprised you didn't care for The Black Dahlia - I thought that was a very brave attempt at what is labyrinthine novel.  it's very operatic (in the performances) and to me it provides some of De Palma`s most bravura set-pieces, (the Fire & Ice boxing match, the stairway/ falling/ death sequence) and some classic pieces of mis-direction (the shooting of Baxter Fitch and the discovery of the Dahlia with the wonderful crane shot), through to Mark Isham`s bombastic score. I also find it very moving with the doomed Elizabeth Short`s sad auditions. Maybe I'm biased as I love film noir  I think the film also struggled critically due to unfair criticisms compared to L.A. Confidential which has a much more linear story, and also because of Josh Hartnett (after the disastrous Pearl Harbour) but I think he`s good in the role, not dissimilar to the character of Elliott Ness in the Untouchables (a good man but this time more affected by the corruption and deceit around him). |
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drnix
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Passion
Jun 28, 2013 14:24:38 GMT -5
Post by drnix on Jun 28, 2013 14:24:38 GMT -5
I thought it was evident throughout the film, from the architecture and design of JJ Koch's office environment, to Isabelle's & Christine's appartments, through to the 'L'après-midi d'un faune Ballet performance'. Many scenes too feature just one or two of the main protagonists - the screen is no-where near as 'busy' as say Snake-Eyes or The Black Dahlia as examples. In Passion there is no 'clutter'. This might also be to emphasise the elements of German expressionism that appear during the film, the bright colours (particularly use of White, Black and Red in clothing and the surrounding environment), the shading, and the canted camera angles mid-way through the film. I thought it was a very interesting and successful approach. Ah, we are indeed on the same page. The German expressionism, coupled with the corporate world's Bauhaus chic, shaped this minimalist look. A big contrast to, say, the wild kitsch of Scarface. I think this shows that although De Palma is an auteur, (and as such deliberately repeats themes and style), he is always adding new elements. This shows just how versatile a director he really is. |
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Passion
Jul 3, 2013 21:12:48 GMT -5
Post by kinglear on Jul 3, 2013 21:12:48 GMT -5
I watched "Passion" on YouTube the other night and the one thing that stood out the most to me was the film continues De Palma's tradition of having persona spread like a disease. The persona of Christine drives the film and changes the lives of the characters around her. Her persona is a brand she sells excellently. She treats everything and everyone like objects, even her own face which she immortalizes in the form of a mask for sex.
The scene of Christine and Isabelle staring at a computer screen brings to mind a scene in "Dressed to Kill": Peter Miller (Keith Gordon) and Liz Blake (Nancy Allen) looking at the TV screen that shows the camera footage Peter captured on the gadget he created. Isabelle is very much the inventive nerd like Peter and Christine is very much like Liz the beautiful prostitute; both couples are an unlikely pair.
This scene of two women watching a computer screen is repeated in the film, as is the act of laughing: Isabelle laughs genuinely at the beginning, but then tries to replicate the laugh later, but it's a clenched, forced version of its former self. De Palma shows one thing and then comments on that thing by reenacting it to reveal something new about it.
Oh yes, and those shadows, even during the "daytime" had me off balance. I kept thinking "I know this is supposed to be during the day, but it's soooo dark." LOL
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drnix
New Member
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Post by drnix on Jul 4, 2013 3:15:40 GMT -5
I watched "Passion" on YouTube the other night and the one thing that stood out the most to me was the film continues De Palma's tradition of having persona spread like a disease. The persona of Christine drives the film and changes the lives of the characters around her. Her persona is a brand she sells excellently. She treats everything and everyone like objects, even her own face which she immortalizes in the form of a mask for sex. The scene of Christine and Isabelle staring at a computer screen brings to mind a scene in "Dressed to Kill": Peter Miller (Keith Gordon) and Liz Blake (Nancy Allen) looking at the TV screen that shows the camera footage Peter captured on the gadget he created. Isabelle is very much the inventive nerd like Peter and Christine is very much like Liz the beautiful prostitute; both couples are an unlikely pair. This scene of two women watching a computer screen is repeated in the film, as is the act of laughing: Isabelle laughs genuinely at the beginning, but then tries to replicate the laugh later, but it's a clenched, forced version of its former self. De Palma shows one thing and then comments on that thing by reenacting it to reveal something new about it. Oh yes, and those shadows, even during the "daytime" had me off balance. I kept thinking "I know this is supposed to be during the day, but it's soooo dark." LOL That's a very interesting analysis. Expanding on this theme I think there is a strong argument for Christine's persona being so strong that Isabelle (initially in awe of her) wants to become her. By the end of the film it is Isabelle who has become the ruthless manipulative 'bitch' that Christine was. This of course links back to the story of the 'Afternoon of a Faun' ballet and Isabelle's own transformation after her 'sensual experiences'. |
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Passion
Jul 4, 2013 23:53:55 GMT -5
Post by kinglear on Jul 4, 2013 23:53:55 GMT -5
The "wants to become her" part is the essence of it to me. The persona of Christine makes people want to be her. There's something very attractive about leading a staff while dressed impeccably, then when she goes home, she has lavish dinner parties. It's being in control of one's life.
Christine and Isabelle are very much like Bette Davis and Joan Crawford: Christine is Bette and Isabelle is Joan Crawford. It's a case of the peasant trying to replace the queen. And like Bette Davis, Christine exudes male energy; from the strap-ons in her sex toy drawer to the phallic jewelry she wears and other symbols (liquor bottle).
The Joan Crawford connection to Isabelle is at its most visual when Isabelle laughs like a face-saving Joan, her face so tight it looks like someone pulling her face, as if she was a puppet.
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Passion
Jul 8, 2013 19:38:38 GMT -5
Post by kinglear on Jul 8, 2013 19:38:38 GMT -5
I've only seen "Passion" once, but I remember when Christine was walking out of her house, she wouldn't step on the cracks, as if she were superstitious. She also wore that crucifix in another scene, which she seems to wear to keep her own demons away. I definitely think Christine might have mild OCD; she lives to control.
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) - I love Brian for his fearless, operatic, deeply idiosyncratic work 
- the camera angles and lighting are less dramatic and the camera moves fewer and less intense nowadays, it seems. The first hour of Passion is visually very flat, I think. So to see the fireworks in the last part of the movie made me very happy. 
it's very operatic (in the performances) and to me it provides some of De Palma`s most bravura set-pieces, (the Fire & Ice boxing match, the stairway/ falling/ death sequence) and some classic pieces of mis-direction (the shooting of Baxter Fitch and the discovery of the Dahlia with the wonderful crane shot), through to Mark Isham`s bombastic score. I also find it very moving with the doomed Elizabeth Short`s sad auditions. Maybe I'm biased as I love film noir 
I think the film also struggled critically due to unfair criticisms compared to L.A. Confidential which has a much more linear story, and also because of Josh Hartnett (after the disastrous Pearl Harbour) but I think he`s good in the role, not dissimilar to the character of Elliott Ness in the Untouchables (a good man but this time more affected by the corruption and deceit around him).